Talking Dairy

Best of 2025: Building a high BW herd - one decision at a time

• DairyNZ

Share episode

More farmers listened to this episode in 2025 than any other. Tune in to find out why it was so popular... 

What does it take to build a top herd? South Taranaki farmers Donovan Croot and Sophie Cookson started strong with a high Breeding Worth (BW) herd. But reaching the top 1% for BW in the country? That took smart decisions and a clear plan to drive genetic gain. 

In this episode, Donovan and Sophie share how they've achieved their results and the highlights from the joint DairyNZ and Fonterra event they hosted with DairyNZ area manager Talissa Squire. 

Did you know?
More Progressing Dairy events on improving genetic gain are coming in 2026. Find one near you.


Get the DairyNZ tools and resources mentioned in this episode: 

Have feedback or ideas for future episodes? Email us at talkingdairy@dairynz.co.nz

Connect with DairyNZ

Stay up to date with advice, latest research, tools and resources. Read, browse, scroll, listen, or be there in person. Visit dairynz.co.nz/get-connected



SPEAKER_02:

Welcome to episode 101 of Talking Dairy. I'm Talissa Squire, an area manager with DairyNZ. In this episode, we're talking about breeding high breeding worth or BW cows and how you can lift genetic gain in your herd. Back in March, DairyNZ and Fonterra ran a series of on-farm events on this exact topic, and one of these was hosted on the South Taranaki farm of Donovan Crewe and Sophie Cookson. These two are first-generation farmers, and they've built a herd that's now in the top 1% for breeding worth. That doesn't happen by accident. Donovan and Sophie are super focused on genetics and they've been really intentional about the decisions they make. They've followed the Dairy and Z five ways to a high BW herd. That's using high BW bulls, targeting replacements from your top BW cows and heifers, keeping accurate and detailed records, using DNA parentage verification, and finally regularly measuring your performance. Donovan and Sophie are doing all of this, and in this chat they share what's working, what hasn't, and what they've learned along the way. So whether you're just starting out or looking to take your breeding to the next level, there's something in here for you. Let's get into it. Let's start with your story. So you guys are first-generation dairy farmers who didn't really grow up on a dairy farm. How did you both get into dairy farming?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so for me it was a fresh start, I guess you'd call it, a chance to get out of the city and start a career in my early 20s. So I was given an opportunity on the Golden Mile on Skeep Road in South Potanaki. Started as a farm assistant there.

SPEAKER_00:

Never really thought you could have a life in farming and dairy farming, especially growing up in the city. So it was really nice meeting Donovan and being able to live out my dream of actually being a country girl and having this wonderful life on the farm. So here we are.

SPEAKER_02:

Given where you are now as Sheer Milk is, how did that journey into dairy farming start for you in terms of what were your initial roles that led you up to where you are?

SPEAKER_01:

So we started dairy farming about 18 years ago now. And I started off in a really um entry-level position as a farm assistant, and knew that if I wanted to get ahead quickly, which was my goal at the time, that I needed to upskill myself. At the time Ag ITO was the training provider, and I enrolled in levels, gosh, I think I started at level ones. Um I was an early high school lever and just worked my way through those courses as I was progressing in the industry. Sophie and I met while I was a farm assistant and uh waited until I moved up in the world to an assistant farm manager until she decided to shift up from Wellington and uh move in with me. And from that position, I went on to be a herd manager on a larger scale dairy farm, again in South Titanaki, and yeah, really loved the challenge of large herd farming. It is a bit of a different kettle of fish in terms of just not getting to know, you know, each and every cow on an individual level by number or by utter, but it really taught me some great time management skills and team skills as well, working with a team of people and also I guess planning. It took sort of really careful planning and management just to keep everything ticking along nicely there. While I was at that herd manager's job, I was doing a agribusiness diploma, so I was up to level five with ITO, and I was lucky enough to be shoulder tapped for a contract milking position for some farm owners who had never employed outside of their family, so it was new territory for both parties. And contract milking at that stage was a fairly new new thing. There wasn't a heck of a lot of it around. But we gave it a will and got our first taste of being self-employed dairy farmers.

SPEAKER_00:

So while we were contract milking, I also went and worked for a vet practice that was nearby. Just started off as like a receptionist and then moved into a vet nursing role. And while I was working there, I got my diploma in vet nursing as well, which was really cool. I also enjoyed using my skills that I had learned at the clinic back on farm, helping Donovan, you know, with sit carbs and doing a bit of on-farm triage, and that's probably where my love of animals and nursing really got put into play for the first time. So three years contract milking and working at the vet clinic as well, and then we went share milking.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so while we were contract milking, we built up a nest egg, I guess you'd call it, for our goal of owning our own cows. We were fortunate enough to have farm owners who could see our hunger for progression in the industry, and they really supported us in terms of letting us rear a few extra surplus heifer calves and things like that on the side. We began trading livestock, I guess you'd say. We would grow out calves into in-calf heifers and then sell them along with our savings from contract milking, we got enough money to put our first herd together.

SPEAKER_00:

Even as a trainee farm manager, I do remember you buying and selling calves and things like that. You know, it was probably when you came back from farming to succeed, which was like quite a good program that Grant Taylor ran. And when you came back from that, I just remember you being really ignited with like wanting to take action now to do something, you know, in terms of for your progression. So taking control of and, you know, creating some wealth. And I think we saw stock as a good way of doing that.

SPEAKER_02:

So you guys have had a really awesome journey going, you know, from those really initial farm assistance stages, right up the way to where you are today as share milkers. And so from that with today's topic, I'm really keen to know where did your passion for breeding high genetic merit cows come from?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, growing up, I didn't know anything about cows. The closest thing to breeding for me was my mum bred cats when I was growing up, and she was very much about pedigrees, and that was quite important to her, and we always had pedigree dogs and things, and I didn't really value that as much at that time growing up, but I always knew pedigree dogs, you know, what to look for, confirmation was something that I quite enjoyed and like understanding pedigrees. And I guess that progressed as I grew up because I then became involved with like breeding dogs, and then it sort of happened, you know, when we came into cows that I was like, oh, you know, this is a whole nother world. And then when you're breeding your own animals, that's quite special as well because you have that lineage and knowing the dam and the grand dam and the sire and things like that. So I guess for me that was kind of a way to branch out from what I knew.

SPEAKER_01:

I remember back in my early stages of farming. My uncle, who was my connection to farming and my sponsor, I guess he'd call it, he bought a cow at a clearing sale when he was out in Toko, out the back of Stratford there. And the cow turned out to be like a superstar brood cow. It was being sold unknowingly at a clearing sale. So he fell upon this cow, and before he knew it, he was getting um a lot of attention from the breeding companies in terms of contract matings, embryo transfer work, and things like that. And he invited me to go up to LIC up at Newstead to the bull breeders' day. And I don't know, I guess it was just to see how proud he was of that and how much passion and excitement he got from the the breeding side of things, I guess that probably ignited a bit of a flame in us as well.

SPEAKER_02:

The herd that you've bred is currently in the top 1% for breeding worth, and and that's no small feat. So, what do you think's helped you guys get there so quickly?

SPEAKER_00:

So during our time in Takarangi, we were fortunate enough to network with some really great people. Because that's one thing Donovan and I were saying like we really support Dairy and Z and we actually love that, you know, how much you guys do for the industry, and we think it's really great. And it was discussion groups that opened up that network for us of people in the area because we were new to the area. So going along to the discussion group, you know, allowed us to meet our breeding mentors and network with them. And I guess they saw the passion that we had for cows, and they probably thought that we would be good custodians for them, for their herd. So we were fortunate to have a relationship with some great breeders, Jim and Sue Webster, who are our friends today. They saw an opportunity in us probably to help us into a great herd that we wouldn't just be normally be able to go out and buy. So they offered us to buy their herd, which was never really something that we had considered that we would get the opportunity to do that. And it just seemed like a a really great opportunity, like too good to pass up. And although it was difficult, we managed to buy them. So that was a really great fast track for us into some really great genetics that gave us a really good foundation to build from. You know, year on year we can make improvements and keep growing from that.

SPEAKER_02:

I believe you guys were telling me that when you purchased the herd at the time, Jim and Sue's herd was actually in the top 1% for BW and PW as well. Is that right? That's right. Yes. Yeah, so it's a good little booster to get you guys on the right track on your genetic journey.

SPEAKER_01:

Definitely. The thing with all of these herd improvement strategies that we're talking about today is that they all require like a significant level of investment, whether that's a financial investment, a time investment, and just a passion for improving our herds. Like for us, it's about we can see what's coming in the future for dairy farmers, which is less cows. The world's got a growing appetite, so we need to produce more milk, just becoming more efficient in terms of our operations. And we know that you could have two cows that do 350 milk solids each and eat, you know, 10 tonnes of dry matter of feed, or you could have one cow that eats half that and does the 700 kilos of milk solids. So it's just all about driving efficiency for us.

SPEAKER_02:

Awesome. So when we consider Dairy and Z five ways to a high BW herd, one of the key ways to lift BW is to use the right bulls. Firstly, what does high BW mean to you? Do you have a minimum BW cutoff that you guys stick to?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes and no. We used to. When we first started out, we were probably super BW focused. And at that time, I'd say all the breeding companies in New Zealand were really focused on production. So it was, you know, milk, BVs, it was fat and protein were like quite heavily weighted in breeding worth. Whereas nowadays, after the DairyNZ consult, actually recently, it's definitely giving us a more balanced approach with our breeding, with our breeding worth. So we're taking into consideration things like udders and fertility and things like that are much more important. What we found was that, because at the same time as us trying to breed a really top-ranking herd, we were also trying to see how much milk we could produce with our herd and ramping production right up. So we were finding that these cows we were breeding were super capable of producing a lot of milk, but they didn't perhaps have the confirmation to back that up. So yeah, we try to take a more balanced approach these days and focus on all aspects of the cow rather than just what she can produce.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think like with BW as well, we were taking into consideration if we're using a freesi, you know, we can expect a little hit for BW and especially if it was a pedigree freesian or something like that. So just understanding what BW is going to complement a cow and things like that too. Like if you have a cow with a really high BW, you can probably afford to have a lower BW for the sire, especially if he adds something really great like a high fertility. So just now we're we're able to pick and choose where we can use it or perhaps have a lower BW in some cases.

SPEAKER_02:

So if she's got the right traits and whatnot, you're willing to sacrifice a little bit of BW to bring that that into the herd.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, especially if you like know something about that size pedigree, perhaps that you know you want to bring in that's special or just gonna compliment her.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And I guess that lends into the next question. With those five ways to a high BW herd, they say that if you can only do one thing, you choose high BW size. So how are you guys selecting your bulls each season?

SPEAKER_00:

It's definitely a process. Usually Donovan and Jim are having like little corridors being like, oh, who's up and coming at the moment? And you know, who should we be watching? And, you know, in terms of ranking size, and there's usually somebody that they're talking about. And I guess just having like an idea of a team of bulls that you think will complement your herd. So that's like sort of what we do. We'll have a team of bulls that we like for various reasons, and perhaps having them be a little bit different between them, but also ones that you think will go well in your herd, because for us, we've found that while some bulls might be really exceptional, they just don't seem to complement our herd very well. You know, we I guess if you're, you know, breeding well, you kind of want uniformity in your herd. And so you're kind of trying to have them all similar so that when you're feeding them and things, you're we're not able to preferentially feed. So we're sort of hoping that they're all sort of similar stature and you know, same efficiency and things like that. So they're all different, but trying to have some sort of uniformity and selecting bulls that you think will be able to balance everybody, you know, well. Part of our processes would just be what type of cows do we have? What type of cows do we want? How can we achieve the cows we want with what we have? And which bulls do we need to bring into our herd to achieve that? And I guess we are able to be quite selective because I do the A B on farm and we nominate. So we've got a bank there, you know, we can pull the bulls that we like. And in the back of the mind, we usually have a list of cows that we want to go to sex. Those are cows that don't have contracts against them. So we use cow manager to be able to identify when those high genomic cows are suitable for sex salmon, and we would like to use the salmon after their second heat so that we know that they're more likely to hold and things like that. So we would already have cows pre-selected that are of high genetic value, and we can choose a bull that's gonna complement her.

SPEAKER_01:

One of our key strategies that we've sort of learned by a bit of trial and error over the years is that you can't put a good bull over a crap cow and expect a good outcome. So that whole breeding from your best thing is definitely something that we focus on more and more each year, actually.

SPEAKER_00:

I think a lot of farmers probably underestimate the importance of the maternal line and how strong that is and how important that is. And yeah, people do put a lot of focus on these great bulls, but they come from really great maternal lines as well, you know, and we really hold our cows accountable. Like if they're not good, they don't stay. And we wouldn't keep cows, you know, in our herd that or breed contract cows that we wouldn't want in our herd, you know. We we have to like them, they have to be good, you know, and we're quite harsh on them in terms of, you know, their health and things, you know, they need to be holding their own weight.

SPEAKER_02:

I guess it's across the board you guys try and target balance in your system, like I've heard you say it already. Yes. And it's similar here. It's about balancing the genetic merit of your size alongside your genetic merit of your dams so that you guys can receive the best outcome in terms of the calves.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02:

When I've chatted to you previously at our event, you made it really clear that you've got a plan for who gets what semen. So such as beef, sex, short gestation, for example. Can you just walk us through your mating strategy and how you decide which cows or heifers are worth worrying from and who gets what?

SPEAKER_01:

We use our data set, so our herd testing data, which feeds into our BW, PW, and we identify our bottom 30% of the herd to go to beef. So those are the bottom cows in terms of their index. Then each day, if we have a group of cows on heat, we milk 180 cows. So we're on a big day, we might get 10 to 12 cows on heat. We'll draft those in the morning and we'll have a look at who's in the pen after milking and how long they've been in heat. If they're in that really good window of the later part of the onset of heat, so anything sort of 16 hours plus from the onset of heat, those are the cows that are suitable for sex semen. And then we'll sift through those and see whether we want to breed replacements from any of them. And, you know, for us, it's about do we enjoy milking that cow? Is she a pleasure to milk? Does she cause us any issues health wise? Has she got a good temperament? And from our team of bulls that we've got sitting in the A B. Bank, is there a complementary mating there for that cow? Or, you know, is it going to add anything to that cow? Those will get the sex semen. Also, we have, I'd say, a quarter of our cows are tied up with contracts with the A B companies so that we already have mating selected for those cows. So those are super easy to manage because we've already gone through that whole sire selection process there with the breeding teams. Yeah, we just go through the motions and select that way, I guess. Process of elimination.

SPEAKER_00:

So our herd is all DNA and profiled. So I like to have a look in mind and look at their individual components and seeing values? Yeah, their breeding values and their herd tests and things like that. See, you know, what are they bringing to the table and what do they need? And from there, knowing their families as well, like we can choose a bull that would be really complimentary. So we'll, you know, before mating, we'll have a look through and just I'll probably make a little spreadsheet of which bulls, because we'll have a team of bulls that we would like, and then just jot them down as well. And there's also the bull search. Yeah, so that's really a really handy tool to be able to build your little bull team and see what they're bringing.

SPEAKER_02:

If we go on to the next step of the five ways to a high BW herd, the second step is to target replacements from your top BW cows and heifers. What's your guys' approach to selecting replacements?

SPEAKER_01:

It's changed a little bit over the last couple of years now that we have access to genomic information. So we are early adopters of genomic testing of our heifer calves. So we're really fortunate here on our farm where we have quite a generous replacement rate. We're allowed to rear 30% replacements, which is wonderful. And what that does is that gives us an opportunity to put a bit of selection pressure on that mob of heifers that we're bringing into the herd. So we're able to go through and look at their maternal lines, their genomic information, and we're able to sell a line of heifers and just bring, you know, the best ones in back into our herd. And, you know, each year I guess we're just we're also a little bit more picky at the time of breeding, because obviously it's less wastage in a way, if we can just either make that cow for a replacement or not. But I guess even those surplus ones are still giving someone out there an opportunity to get their hands on some pretty good heifers to join their herd.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, absolutely. Because when we looked over your LIC reports, over 60% of your dams had a BW higher than 360. So even your guys that maybe not have made it to your replacements still have some opportunity out there. You're absolutely right to help somebody else.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

The third step of the five ways to a high BW herd is all about keeping accurate and detailed records. And so for you guys, record keeping must play a really big role in all of this. So what are you guys tracking on farm? And are there any tools or apps that you find especially useful?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, we're very fortunate. Gone are the days of the little yellow notebook. We have so many apps and things that make our life really easy these days. We have Minder and their suite of apps, MIDI carving. We can record our carvings on the go. We can tag our calves with temp tags in the paddock in the MIDI app and then give them their permanent tags back in the pen later when time allows.

SPEAKER_00:

So with Cow Manager, we can monitor the health and fertility and nutrition of the herd, which is really crucial through the transition period from dry to lactating, you know, monitoring their health and obviously like for fertility as well. So that's really handy for us.

SPEAKER_01:

Also helps with the timing of enseems when we're using expensive stuff like sex semen and things like that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. And it enables us to monitor the heats for our yearlings as well. So we do A B on our yearlings, and we can just really target them for replacements too, which is quite cool, something a bit different.

SPEAKER_02:

The fourth step of the five ways to hire BW herd is to use DNA parentage verification. You guys have already mentioned that you DNA test. So has that changed how you manage replacements and pick your best animals? What benefits have you guys actually seen from that?

SPEAKER_01:

So essentially, I think it gives people confidence. Wow, it's so much bigger than that, though, isn't it? It's like if we don't have G3 verified parentage on our cows, and they're recorded against certain size and dams, and we're feeding information into Minder and things like that about these animals that aren't recorded properly. It's actually messing with the whole national herd at some level. And if there's enough of that going on, then it's just bad for the industry. Like we wouldn't buy animals necessarily unless we really trusted the people or knew them personally. If they weren't DNA G3 verified, even the best operators can miss mother.

SPEAKER_00:

Definitely, we've seen it firsthand.

SPEAKER_01:

We get like we rear 50 calves each year, and there's always one or two that come back with question marks. That's in a small herd.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you know, so it's part and parcel with the nature of carbonate, especially in its spring.

SPEAKER_02:

It's yeah, it's hectic. Yeah, absolutely. And when that DNA parentage is is picking up that you've actually got those potentially lower genetic girls, those low-performing cows, you can actually get them out of there before they start bringing your herd backwards.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Genetics is just so interesting, you know, even when you've got like AT sisters and things like that, looking at the variation between those sisters is just so incredible how they can vary. And they're full sisters as well, but it's just DNA. So, you know, having that DNA is such an advantage to your breeding program because you can really hone in on who they are.

SPEAKER_02:

And I guess that lends it back to when you guys are selecting your high BW siers, if you've got that parentage verification and you know what's going on with those girls when they're in the herd, helps you guys make the best selections for your high BW siers as well. So it all kind of lends to itself.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02:

So the fifth way to a high BW herd that Darian Z talks about is to measure cow performance. And you guys measure that pretty closely. So I know that your herd tests five times a year, you watch your in-calf rates and more. So what do you guys consider your key KPI metrics and how do they feed into your breeding decisions?

SPEAKER_01:

So the way that we sort of operate is we try to just pick one key like focus area each season and try to improve it. So uh the season just been we really focused on our reproduction and just trying to get back up to those industry targets of you know 78% six week in calf rate and things like that. We know that the following year, um, if we have a tight carving spread, we're gonna make more milk early on. We're gonna have cows cycling earlier, which is gonna feed into better repro the following year and give us, you know, selection pressure again at the other end to be a bit more picky about who we choose to carry on into the following season. So key KPIs around that would be like our repro KPIs are really important to us, three-week submission rate because it feeds into our six-week calf rate. We've had years in the past where we've really focused on minimizing health issues during calving because we know that healthy cows are gonna make more milk, they're gonna get in calf easier. KPIs there would be like percentage of cows that got um metabolic issues during calving or percentage of cow deaths on the on the farm that season and things like that. You know, even down to the details of calves and making sure that we have really stringent calf wearing procedures and good health in our calves. We try to minimize losses there as well.

SPEAKER_02:

And when we look at your guys' dairy based reports, we can see that the production per kilogram of live weight from your herd was around 136%. And your girls were producing around 630 kilograms of milk solid per cow. Is this something that you guys follow quite closely?

SPEAKER_01:

We do have a particular focus each season, but we also take like a bit of a holistic approach with the way that we farm. So, yep, we definitely at the start of each season, well, before that, back in the the autumn, heading into the next season, we sit down with each other first and then with our trusted advisors, our farming friends. We we we like to chat and all of our stakeholders and we put together plans for the season ahead. We try to be quite fluid in our the way that we farm. We're not sort of really rigid in our plans. We farm based on what's in front of us rather than what we've always done or what's always been done because we understand that the weather is forever changing. You can go into a season with all your ducks in a row and then boom, there's a massive weather event or something like that that throws everything out. So we're quite we try to be quite fluid and flexible. We definitely plan for the whole season ahead, just in terms of our feeding regime and things like that, just making sure that we have supplementary feed on hands for those leaner times. And I guess one thing we've really learned in recent years is like consistency is really key.

SPEAKER_00:

Cows don't like change at all.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's something that we learn early on. So I say that we're quite fluid, but also we try to be fairly consistent just in terms of getting our cows off to a good start and then reaching a fairly good peak, but then holding them there for as long as we can. You know, we know that it's gonna be wet and cold in spring. We know that summers can get really dry and challenging down here, so we try to make sure that we have feed on hand because even the old school farmers will tell you that silage stacked in the paddock or or a hay barn full of hay is always a good insurance policy and it's never gonna go to waste.

SPEAKER_02:

So you guys have kind of touched on it earlier. You know, you initially started with that strong BW focus and then you started really focusing into those B V traits. So can you just tell us a little bit more about the challenges you've had with fertility and type traits and how you're managing that now?

SPEAKER_00:

When you're pushing production, longevity of confirmation is like becomes really important. You can get cows having first and second lactations and falling apart if their confirmation isn't right. And I guess, you know, it's only when you get to that point where you see that there's issues that need changing and things like that, and it's quite a hard one because breeding is such a long game as well that you know it takes a few years really to see what the effects of you know your mating is, and then is it working or not? And some traits uh more heritable than others. I would say that like we've learnt a lot through our journey and we're still learning, like, and we'll continue to do that. Definitely, and yeah, sometimes the proof is just in the pudding, and that's the best way of learning too. We've realized how important confirmation is and we have become more focused around like utter confirmation and just how important that is and the engine room of the cow and everything, and just understanding how the confirmation traits hold up.

SPEAKER_01:

Production traits.

SPEAKER_00:

The production traits, exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I have to say, like, kudos to all of our farming friends and community out there from all over the country because there was recently that it was Darian Z from memory that put out the huge consultation around breeding worth and what we valued as farmers and what we thought perhaps wasn't being highlighted enough in terms of breeding worth. So I have to say kudos to everyone for that because I have noticed um since that consultation there's been focus in some of those confirmation traits. Um and you see it coming through in the bull catalogues, the other BVs and things like that are definitely improving drastically now.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, definitely. So just bulls with more desirable traits available and it's more balance. We're not just going for the bulls from one company. We just choose the best bulls that are available that are going to complement our herd. You know, we don't care who's marketing them, really. That's probably one of our things as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Awesome. And to wrap up our final question of the day, for anyone listening who wants to make a start or take the next step in improving herd genetics, what's one piece of advice you'd give them?

SPEAKER_01:

Get your your ancestry up so you know that those animals in your paddock are who they say they are on paper. Herd test your cows. Be super selective with your mating programs. Don't breed from crap cows because you're gonna get crap outcomes.

SPEAKER_00:

I would say know your herd because you can't improve on them if you don't know what you're working with. So know who you're working with and have some clear goals of what you want them to look like or be like, or you know, what improvements you specifically want to make, and maybe write them down even like have them as actual goals because there's a lot that goes into it, so many components that go into breeding, and I guess you could target specific areas as well. Like Don Wynn said, you know, look at the recording and get that right, and then because that's pretty much what we've done over the years is just tick off one thing at a time. And you know, as it all comes together, the puzzle comes together, it it creates a really strong foundation for you to work with.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So I think what I'm hearing from you guys is know what you want your outcome to be and then start with those small changes to get on that journey. Definitely. That's a wrap on this episode. Big thanks to Donovan and Sophie for sharing their journey so openly and reminding us that genetic gain isn't just about numbers, it's about having a herd that's fit for the future. If you're keen to dig deeper, head to dairynz.co.nz and check out the resources on breeding worth and great tools like bull search, as mentioned, the in-calf gap calculator and herd averages. We've linked them in the show notes for you. And if you found this episode helpful, share it with someone else who's into breeding, or maybe somebody who's just getting started. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Talking Dairy. Make sure to hit follow so you can keep up to date with our latest podcasts. You can also keep up with DairyNZ News on Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn, or go to our website and sign up for our fortnightly DairyNZ News emails. As always, if you have any feedback on this podcast or have some ideas for future topics or guests to have on the show, please email us at talkingdairy at dairynz.co.nz. Catch you next time.